Response to warez rules (idk how this works so please spare me haha
I have zero idea how this works so I'm just going to append here and hope you see it. I think it's a little bit silly to have rules from other pages relating to completely different systems apply here especially when it seems to me that the DSI scene is completely founded on tools that break the rules. So if we're gonna start classifying the DSI scene as an illegitimate scene due to very basic low level tools that are necessary to complete what most would consider a reasonable hack then we can have that discussion but blocking the talk of tools and sidestepping the rules for certain tools like unlaunch because they're necessary it's just outright silly in my opinion. Either enforce the rules universally and say that yes were not even allowing a tool as fundamental as Unlaunch due to its inclusion of unremovable signature checks, or allow tools like Unlaunch and TwilightMenu to be talked about. I think each Wiki deserves its own set of rules, the switch scene definitely needs to be a lot more strict about it, I could even see arguments about the wii scene, but with the DSI scene, not only is the DSI so dead that it's impossible to get games legally, which yes I know isn't an excuse for piracy but that's still a valid point to bring, but the fact that the homebrew/cfw scene has developed in such a way that enforcing the rules properly would just make this entire website pointless. I do get where you're coming from and I don't disagree that yes the rules are the rules, but the thing is as of now this page has no rules, and while we can use common sense ,I think that that is exactly what is being violated here, common sense. Is twilight menu technically able to be considered a piracy tool? yes, but I'd be hard pressed to find a single person that has a homebrewed nintendo DSI that doesn't have twilight menu, or at the very least unlaunch. If somebody does and they're so terrified about having any tool on their system that could even remotely be considered a piracy tool, then I don't understand why they're even in the scene to begin with. Just use A stock system since you're that terrified of upsetting nintendo. It's late and I'm using voice to text so I'm sorry if this rant seems a bit incoherent lol. I mean no harm to you and I don't mean to be a toxic dickhead but at the same time it really just seems counter productive how desperate the scene is to be so far from piracy that it actually just causes itself harm in the grand scheme of things. Yes we can't risk annoying nintendo because they will destroy us if they really wanted to, but at this point we're just straight up denying the existence of certain scenes due to our desperateness in keeping ourselves away from piracy. My official proposal is that we write a new set of rules for this website in particular making it known that unlaunch and twilight menu are damn near necessary tools for a well homebrewed DSI while at the same time acknowledging that actual game piracy and software piracy will not be tolerated and that these tools are meant to be used for homebrew and for unlocking your system and dumping your own games and playing YOUR own backups if you wish, but heavily denouncing the actual piracy of software. If that's not able to be done then my other proposal is that we just simply delete this website. Maybe rebrand it or something, like have this website be for just simply having information on how the DSI works. But having homebrew information on this website just seems pointless if we're not even going to be able to discuss fundamental tools that actually make the whole thing click. I'm open to other opinions though. I was only annoyed with how you handled things because you kind of made it out to be a joke when I think this is just going to make it more annoying for end users and might even make some end users decide not to homebrew their DSI because tools that basically everybody including heavy nonpirates encourage them to use are labeled as piracy tools by those who are those who have any amount of "authority" in the scene. I'll end my rant here, I honestly wasn't expecting you to be as civilized you were when rebutting me after me being a bit of a douche so thank you for that, and I honestly hope that this turns into a healthy discussion because this is something that's been on my mind with the scene for a while and I'd like to maybe see some more thoughtful discussion on how exactly we want to approach this issue. Not just from a "yes obviously we can't allow outright software piracy to go on blatantly in our scene" but from a "do we also have to shun tools that could open the ability for that piracy even when they hold much more rich and important features to the modding of a console". Thank you for reading this and I genuinely look forward to talking more with you ♡ —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeadSpecimen (talk • contribs)
- Backup launching is piracy though. Take any Wii game manual (not sure if DS manuals say this too), and flip to the back cover. There's a statement saying backup copies of the game are prohibited and are not necessary to protect the game copy, and violators will be prosecuted. That's probably the most straightforward proof that Nintendo considers this piracy. I don't think an "alternative policy" is an option, since this wiki is part of a larger chain that needs to have policies like this, or it may be at risk of being taken down by Nintendo.
Also, I saw you said that every modded DSi has warez software on it, but I actually have neither twilight menu or unlaunch on my DSi because of these piracy features, and I don't plan on installing unlaunch until there is a version that does not have sigpatches. The note I had about Unlaunch was more of something to do once a sigpatch-free bootloader exists, since sigpatches aren't as much of a threat if rules about unofficial installs exist. Hallowizer (talk) 00:53, 18 July 2022 (CEST)
Nintendo can't just create law out of thin air. The DMCA states that single backups of software are legal as long as they are not sold or traded without also including the original copy. If Nintendo said adding a screen protector to their device was prohibited due to being an unauthorized modification to their hardware and would prosecute if you were found to have used one, would you actually be that guy to both never use a screen protector and rat out people using one? Just because Nintendo says something is prohibited doesn't mean we should give a damn. Thats what homebrew is about. I and most people in the homebrew scene don't give a damn what nintendo has to say. We aren't harming their profits by using our own backups they can shove it and spend time going after actual pirates. You're gonna have a hard time convincing the rest of the scene to dump unlaunch just because it has sigpatches even if one without them comes out because nobody else cares. If this wiki actually deletes those pages due to this stupid nuance then I give up on this scene. Nintendo is a bully and will make their own laws if they wish. They did so in Japan but have not in the USA. It is not illegal to backup software, only to distribute. Stop falling for their propaganda
- I do want to be clear: I'm not saying that's a law that Nintendo made, just that this is something that Nintendo considers to be piracy. The wikis are not trying to convince everybody to stop using these things, as that would be unrealistic, but the wiki is still right to not want to break Nintendo's piracy rules. (Also, it turns out there is a patch for the unlaunch installer that keeps it from installing things like sigpatches, so no, getting rid of unlaunch isn't even a thing that's absolutely needed.) Hallowizer (talk) 04:05, 18 July 2022 (CEST)
I'm still confused though on when we've ever cared about nintendos rules on anything unless it actually breaks the law. Why do we care? What exactly is at stake by censoring these topics here? It saves us from nothing, and once again if legality isn't in question but instead morality, then I believe that this place just shouldn't exist if talking about very basic and generally wanted tools for a more robust cfw experience is out of the moral compass of the owners/mods. May I add why Luma3DS and Haxchi/Tiramisu (assuming you follow the wiiu guide which suggests sigpatches) aren't held to the same scrutiny? Why did Atmosphere not including them and Scires being super anal about sigpatches cause everyone to fear them and create this new philosophy with homebrew that "touching the nand is bad?" This really is a non issue that people are making into an issue and tbh I think the other (blank)brew.org sites need to drop some of these rules. Wii.guide has direct instruction on how to install usbloaderGX, so wii/dsibrew is honestly just pushing itself into obscurity with these rules. Once again, I do NOT encourage actual piracy, but the suppression of information on tools due to a barely existant threat of Nintendo enforcing a legally non binding rule for an outdated system is just insanity.
- The DMCA is weird, and Nintendo could probably have a good chance at DMCAing these sites under the claim that they break DRM. Also, whenever the Switch U (or whatever) is released, it will probably have kernel bugs, but if people aren't using the bugs for piracy, Nintendo may have a slightly smaller chance of caring. If SwitchUBrew banned these things but the other wikis didn't, then it might suggest that SwitchUBrew has an underground network that encourages piracy. A better explanation can be found on HackMii (skip to the paragraph starting with "Piracy is morally wrong"). Hallowizer (talk) 06:54, 18 July 2022 (CEST)
While I disagree on the likelihood of the threat, you do bring up a very fair point and I'll give you that. I'd be quite frankly appalled if nintendo actually decided to go after the (blank)brew websites due to us talking about these programs but nintendo is very unfair and quite frankly is willing to break the law to get their way so once again I'll give you that.